05:02 – 06:13
Welcome to Ask Dr. Change.

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I’m Dr. Linda Ackerman Anderson.

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I’m happy to have you join me today to explore how to seriously up

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level your leadership and consulting to transformational changes

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all through conscious change leadership.

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Welcome.

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Today’s episode is a very special event for me.

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I’m interviewing Daryl Connor, who’s one of the Godfathers

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of the change profession.

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A part of my intention for these interviews.

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Daryl is the first.

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I’m honored and blessed, and I

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will be interviewing thought leaders in the field.

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And Daryl is first on my list

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and a priority influencer of the field.

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Daryl and I met in the early 1980s where we were both presenting

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at an aluminum manufacturing plant to the manufacturing manager, others

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to the management team, and we both got an opportunity

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to experience each other’s initial work way back then,

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and we’ve remained in contact and friends ever since.

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And so professionally, I believe that we grew up in this field

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and we also grew this field.

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And so, Daryl, by way of introducing, I’d like to read

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just a little bit about your lengthy bio

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and then have you say hi and embellish and we’ll go from there.

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so a bit about Daryl from Daryl’s Bio.

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For over 50 years Daryl has educated and advised

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strategic leaders and veteran change practitioners

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in many of the world’s most successful organizations.

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He is co-founder and chairman of three distinct

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but related platforms that he uses to deliver his work.

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Connor Advisory.

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Connor Partners.

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And Connor Academy.

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Daryl’s work is built on a strong

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foundation of research, extensive

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consulting experience, and a master’s degree in psychology.

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He has authored two books seminal in the field, managing at the Speed of Change

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and Leading at the Edge of Chaos

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and more than 250 publications.

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Daryl’s recent work and newer published work

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has been made available through blogs, essays and white papers.

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And Daryl, I would invite you to add any embellishment

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to your background so our listeners know a bit more about you.

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Well, it’s good to be with you, Linda.

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Thanks for the invitation.

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journey for me started out in the military.

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I was very fortunate while I was in the Army

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to be placed in a in a unit.

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That was it was kind of a it was sort of the psychology version of MASH.

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It was psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers.

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And we were all thrown together.

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And this was at Fort Benning, Georgia.

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And that happened to be the place where anything

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experimental in the Army was done there around weapons or anything else.

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So they they tossed

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two really interesting projects and said, you guys got to figure it out.

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One was drug abuse

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and the other was race relations.

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And so that was the

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that was the pool that I got to swim in for three years when I was in.

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And this is this is the height of the Vietnam War.

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And so I just got to an amazing

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set of experiences, but also a wonderful learning opportunity

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to work with these psychiatrists and social workers.

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I didn’t know it then.

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We were we were just trying to create clinical programs for drug

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abuse and race relations.

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I didn’t

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realize then, Linda, that it was actually my introduction to change dynamics

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because we built what we thought were four

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good programs and no one was using them.

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And so the emphasis from

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my assignment was to figure out, well, how do we get these these military leaders

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to rotate into the direction of using these programs?

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And so I didn’t have I didn’t have a clue

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that I was actually beginning to be immersed

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in organizational dynamics of change.

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And so that was really the origin for me.

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Beautiful.

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Do you know, I think back over the early days that led us into this world

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and into this work, and I realize we had so much fun,

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what I call making stuff up.

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You know, it’s like figuring it out, trying it out.

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How was that for you?

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Well, I’m glad I didn’t know what I didn’t know

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because I think I had been really scared like I was wrong.

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I mean, I’m a I’m a student of patterns.

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I love to try to find patterns.

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And where do they go?

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And so I was just

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I had because of the counseling work

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that was done in the military,

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I was focused in on

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I’ve worked a lot with families that had lost somebody in Vietnam

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and families with drug abuse and race relations.

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And so I was used to two dynamics at that level around change.

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But but to your to your point, moving out and trying to figure out

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how does any of that apply to organizational dynamics?

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Because as you know, back in the late sixties, early seventies,

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there was very little documentation about dynamics of change.

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Some, but not a lot.

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And so it was it was a lot of hunting and pecking.

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And this isn’t working.

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Let’s try something else.

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And I was I was too naive to do it,

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to feel anything other than just fortunate that I got to play.

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It would play around with that stuff.

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And only honestly, only later did it become clear

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that it actually potentially had more importance than just having fun.

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Right. Beautiful.

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Well, I want to talk about what’s become clear and ask you

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so after all of this time, what does success look like to you?

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What does it mean to have really achieved what you’ve intended

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or you’ve supported your clients to achieve?

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What’s that look like for you?

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And success in your perception of the services that you’ve provided

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really clear, Linda, that I don’t think it’s my job to ensure that they do.

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What’s what I would take is the follow the right path.

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I don’t think that’s my role.

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I’m not there to make sure they make the right decisions.

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I’m there to make sure they make informed decisions.

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So so that’s a key to to the success in the relationship between myself

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and most of my work is with CEOs and the boards and the senior teams.

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And so at that level, ensuring

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even if they are going to make a turn, that’s contrary to what I’ve suggested.

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I don’t measure

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my influence by how often they agree with me.

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It’s nice when they do, but I measure the influence based on to

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what degree do they value my input even if they go in a different direction.

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And so that to me, that’s a measure of

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of whether or not I’m providing value to them is if things

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if it’s my perspective or my recommendations have have opened up

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avenues for them to pursue as they as they think

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about what they’re going to do regardless of which way they go.

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So so in terms of my success, that’s that’s what I’m hoping

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to accomplish in terms of their success.

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It’s important from my standpoint that they be attuned

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to the distinction between installing change and realizing

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change with with installation being all those enablers.

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We have to train people, we have to reorganize, we have to merge whatever.

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But realization

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is what’s all that in service to?

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And what I have found is that

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our profession has tended to gravitate

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it’s success measures toward installation metrics rather than realization metrics.

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the combination of their success in mind is if I can help them

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make informed decisions and that leads them toward realization,

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then I think that we’ve formed a good partnership.

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Beautiful.

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You know, I’m imagining what I’m about to share with you.

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I imagine it to be, too.

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I want you to comment on it.

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The work that you’re doing now with large scale

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global NGOs, it’s work of value.

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So it’s work of meaning.

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It makes a difference to the world.

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And so they’re realizing their realization of the changes they want to make.

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And landing the impact they want to have

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has to be meaningful to you, has to be a driver.

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Is that accurate?

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It is

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so much so that I, I had to create a platform for myself.

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I reached a point where just

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pro-bono occasional work in this sector.

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I didn’t feel like that was enough of a contribution.

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And so

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that’s somebody else to, you know, to run counter partners,

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which is where the corporate work is done and allowed me to focus in on on.

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I spent most of my time with with NGOs.

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What’s interesting to me it’s interesting

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is there’s nothing any different about the change related challenges

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in that sector, The whatever, whatever you run into in terms

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of resistance to change and cultural in all of that is there.

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So they’re not immune to any of that,

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but the difference is what’s at stake.

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So instead of profitability or customer satisfaction or some of the

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some of the other metrics that that are or more relevant for the corporate arena

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here, we’re talking about

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if they do or don’t succeed with some of their transformational change,

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at a minimum, it’s going to make a difference

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in the quality of life of who they’re serving.

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And for some of the organizations I work with,

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what’s at stake is actually lives themselves.

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So Doctors Without Borders and and Habitat for Humanity, they they are

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they’re literally saving lives or not

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saving lives dependent on whether they can accomplish a transformation.

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So it’s it’s just incredibly

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rewarding to

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me to be able to feel like that, that I have a

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a voice to try to help them in service, to look to that level of change.

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But the dynamics, Linda, of what

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what I’ve always is

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, how about serving change consultants?

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You also find that meaningful.

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In what ways do you serve and develop change consultants

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Well, the third platform is

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Connor Academy, and it was established

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about eight years ago now.

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I went to

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and Boswell is my business partner

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for both the Academy and the and the advisory were Ed

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was in charge of change management for TWC until he hit that magic retirement age.

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And I was fortunate enough to do this

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to convince him to come in and do this work

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is an amazing, amazing human being, an incredible partner.

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And what we wanted to do together

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was to have a vehicle where we could be in service to CEOs

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and their direct reports in the boards of these these NGO entities.

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But also

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we wanted to be in service to to change practitioners

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that were aspiring either already were at the mastery level of their craft.

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But part of the definition of mastery is you’re never finished.

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And so they those that were working to extend their mastery

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are those that aspire to move into mastery.

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There just aren’t many places you would deem

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certainly have created space for that.

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But there’s not many other places that I found where

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where it wasn’t about tools and techniques.

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That’s that’s a that’s a key element for me.

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The academy is very methodology agnostic.

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It doesn’t matter to me what the certification is.

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But but to come to that, to the Academy program

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is vital that you already be grounded in some

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some version of tools and techniques because we’re not going there.

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We’re taking the tools and techniques and elevating them

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their value to another level by incorporating who you are.

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So there’s if you think of

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our methodologies, we all have them those if that’s what we do,

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then incorporating who we are into that is where mastery level.

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That’s where wisdom and insight comes from.

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It’s not it’s not just the tools and techniques.

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And so that platform was created so that so breadth and I could

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be in service to

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practitioners that wanted to move to that level.

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Now, personally,

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my hope is that some of those that go through the Academy

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will be will gain some interest in, in the NGO sector

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I always try to encourage them to at least consider some part of their portfolio

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to be whether it’s pro-bono or paid for or whatever, in some way,

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see how you could be in service to to changes that matter.

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And so that I want to make a distinction between changes that work and changes

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that matter.

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And in the work or any of the things we might find ourselves

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supporting, changes that matter or changes that matter to you or to me.

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So it’s only it’s up to us to decide so nobody else can tell us a change

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that matters.

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But finding the change that that that you have a personal investment in,

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hopefully a change

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that can make a difference in the quality of the human experience in some way.

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That’s what I hope our profession could be better positioned to provide,

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probably provide some support to Beautiful.

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Well, that leads me in to a question I want to ask you about.

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Is where do you think the profession needs to go next?

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What additional ways of being services?

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What do you think the future of the change profession is?

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well, I’d

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probably already tip my hand in that regard because

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I feel like

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as a profit there’s certainly exceptions to what I’m about to say.

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But as a profession we’ve

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we’ve gravitated toward

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being technicians rather than artist.

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And, and I and I think that there’s a continuum here and,

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and with artistry on one end and in technical skills

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around tools and technique and the whole continuum is valuable.

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So there’s no place that there’s isn’t value, but there’s so much

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almost obsession with certification

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and finding the next set of tools that.

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My concern is that as a profession,

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we’re not providing enough support for,

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for, for the other end of the continuum, for the mastery end of the continuum.

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And and by mastery, I don’t mean I’ve already got two certifications,

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so I’m going for a third or fourth one.

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That’s I’m not talking about that.

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I’m talking about about

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moving into a realm

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where where I’m the instrument.

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You’re the instrument.

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And how does that get incorporated into whatever tools and techniques we use?

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So my my wish is that as a profession, we

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we would not be so technically focused that we don’t see

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that there’s something on this on the other side of certification.

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I think we should start with certifications.

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I’m not anti certification, but what’s on the other side of that,

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I wish as a profession we had more of a voice Beautiful.

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Well, that answers part of my next question.

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One of I want to ask you, if you were to give three

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tips or themes or guidance.

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So one question is for leaders of major transformational efforts.

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And then secondarily, for consultants

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started with consultants about moving beyond tools, techniques, certifications

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to ways of being that enable them to be greater masters of the craft.

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So if you want to add anything further for consultants

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and then share with me your thoughts about leadership.

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a transformation to change level,

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a lot of leaders are

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there seeking change management guidance,

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but they’re looking for somebody to offload it to.

18:11 – 18:03:23
transformational change has got to be between the practitioner

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and these leaders, has got to be a partnership.

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It can’t be this isn’t something we can do for them.

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And that’s not that’s not always well received.

18:14:08 – 18:16:10
I look for

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I look for scar tissue when when there’s a new engagement,

18:20:23 – 18:23:23
leaders that have been through enough change that they

18:24:11 – 18:27:07
you know, if they had all the answers, they wouldn’t be looking for help.

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But but they’ve learned enough

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to know that they can’t just dump it on our shoulders.

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And I’ll check in with you occasionally.

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And I think that that insight comes from making mistakes and having scar tissue.

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And so that’s something I really emphasize, is the is that these

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leaders are used to flying

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very high and and and expecting somebody else to do

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do some of them or a lot of the work, if not all of it.

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I’m in the middle of of an engagement right now with an NGO where

19:04:10 – 19:07:11
they are they’re the ones they can’t they’re not offloading it

19:07:11 – 19:08:05
to somebody else.

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They’re the ones that are struggling with how do we articulate

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the ultimate strategic intent of this huge, massive transformation?

19:19:07 – 19:21:04
No one else can can do that.

19:21:04 – 19:24:04
Others in them and all that didn’t.

19:24:10 – 19:25:22
That hasn’t come easy for them.

19:25:22 – 19:27:21
They assumed that h.r.

19:27:21 – 19:29:13
Would do that for them or whatever.

19:29:13 – 19:33:16
So so that’s that’s one message that i think is important for leaders is,

19:33:16 – 19:36:14
is that if you go for transformational change,

19:36:14 – 19:39:15
then you’re going to have to be personally very involved.

19:39:15 – 19:44:12
And related to that is an axiom that you can’t as a leader,

19:44:12 – 19:47:20
you can’t transform an institution unless you’re willing

19:47:20 – 19:52:12
to transform yourself that that it becomes very personal.

19:52:20 – 19:56:14
Oh, what what do I have to learn

19:57:10 – 19:59:18
and modify in my leadership

19:59:18 – 20:03:23
to up my game so that we as an organization can lift our game up

20:04:04 – 20:07:20
leaders are not always calibrated toward that as an expectation.

20:08:08 – 20:11:15
And if I was going to pick one more, but your third one, it’s

20:12:12 – 20:16:04
that leaders at that level need to understand their

20:16:19 – 20:20:19
their job isn’t to make transformational change

20:20:19 – 20:24:13
comfortable for people because it’s inherently uncomfortable.

20:24:17 – 20:27:17
Their job isn’t to to ensure

20:27:17 – 20:30:17
comfort their job is to help the organization

20:30:17 – 20:34:04
succeed despite the discomfort that they’re going to have to go through.

20:35:12 – 20:37:14
Most of them,

20:37:14 – 20:39:19
they don’t value struggle.

20:39:19 – 20:42:07
And so they’re looking for, well, how do we do this

20:42:07 – 20:44:13
without disrupting things?

20:44:13 – 20:48:07
And of course, we all want to minimize disruption, all we can.

20:48:17 – 20:51:12
But but you don’t transform

20:51:12 – 20:54:09
without disruption, without struggle.

20:54:09 – 20:57:11
And again, that’s that’s not been a

20:58:01 – 21:01:01
for some leaders, that’s not been an easy lesson for them to learn.

21:01:06 – 21:03:21
For sure. Absolutely beautiful.

21:03:21 – 21:06:21
You know, I wanted to go to consultants, but you’re

21:07:12 – 21:11:00
answering another question that I have for you, and that is

21:11:07 – 21:17:15
the biggest challenges you have in serving leaders at the executive level.

21:17:22 – 21:20:02
And so you’re talking about some of those.

21:20:02 – 21:23:12
If you want to comment on that before we talk about change consultants.

21:24:08 – 21:28:13
relative to the sophistication and the complexity.

21:29:02 – 21:32:20
These, these NGOs are a lot of people think of NGOs

21:32:20 – 21:34:20
as kind of small mom and pop shop. These are

21:35:20 – 21:37:02
multi-billion

21:37:02 – 21:40:13
dollar institutions and they’re all over the world

21:41:01 – 21:44:04
and and they’re there to save lives.

21:45:22 – 21:48:05
The complexity

21:48:05 – 21:51:12
and the sophistication of what is happening,

21:51:21 – 21:54:21
from my experience just continues to escalate.

21:55:12 – 21:58:16
Just every every week,

21:58:16 – 22:02:01
every month, every year in I are kind of

22:02:23 – 22:07:01
you know, kind of blown away at the at the complexity,

22:07:01 – 22:08:09
the the level of

22:08:09 – 22:12:00
challenge that they’re dealing with, which means, of course, that we have to be

22:12:07 – 22:15:03
we have to up our game to to do to help them do that.

22:15:03 – 22:20:04
So my biggest challenge is I feel like there’s an embarrassing gap.

22:21:07 – 22:24:21
I mean, okay, I’ve been at it 50 years, but there’s an embarrassing gap

22:24:21 – 22:30:05
between for me, between what I’ve learned and what kind of challenges coming in.

22:30:12 – 22:33:08
So so my biggest concern is that

22:33:08 – 22:37:03
I won’t learn enough fast enough to keep up with

22:38:20 – 22:41:07
with with the request, if you will.

22:41:07 – 22:43:20
You know, can you come help us with this?

22:43:20 – 22:48:01
And this oftentimes is something Whoa, I’ve never seen that before.

22:48:18 – 22:53:20
my biggest worry is, is can I can I keep moving fast enough in my own learning

22:54:03 – 22:59:15
to be able to genuinely be the resource that that they’re asking me to be Yeah.

22:59:15 – 23:01:20
Thereby the title of your book.

23:01:20 – 23:04:13
Leading at the Speed of Change. Right.

23:04:13 – 23:06:19
And the Edge of Chaos.

23:06:19 – 23:08:22
And so dealing with the.

23:08:22 – 23:12:18
With the complexity that is required now.

23:13:01 – 23:15:14
You know, there’s nothing

23:15:14 – 23:17:06
more humbling

23:17:06 – 23:20:20
than doing this work in complex organizations.

23:20:20 – 23:24:08
Complex transformation, which is so emergent and messy.

23:24:20 – 23:29:07
And so I think the tying the work that you’re doing,

23:29:12 – 23:34:02
developing Mastery and Change consultants, it also embodies

23:34:02 – 23:37:22
being humble in the face of what being asked to help serve.

23:38:10 – 23:41:15
And so I hear that in what in what you’re sharing?

23:42:21 – 23:45:21
Well, aren’t I?

23:46:02 – 23:50:12
I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think of it as is humility as much as just

23:51:16 – 23:54:16
just facing the reality of

23:55:01 – 23:59:00
how much more I mean you would think after 50 years

23:59:00 – 24:02:00
we would kind of go, yeah, yeah, I know what to do.

24:02:02 – 24:05:20
Well, I do or I know what to do at a certain level, but,

24:05:23 – 24:10:21
but they’re, they’re bringing multiple levels above that.

24:10:21 – 24:13:21
And, and so,

24:13:21 – 24:15:07
yeah, it’s,

24:15:07 – 24:17:21
it’s kind of easy to keep your feet on the ground

24:17:21 – 24:20:07
when everyone every day you’re kind of wondering,

24:20:07 – 24:23:22
can I stay ahead of this curve enough to really keep providing value.

24:24:01 – 24:25:14
Yeah. Absolutely.

24:25:14 – 24:31:13
So how to stay present in the face of that hired degree of complexity

24:31:13 – 24:36:18
and So that you could listen internally about what’s next to receive guidance,

24:37:01 – 24:41:11
about how to try out possibilities to serve them.

24:41:15 – 24:44:02
that’s really important.

24:44:02 – 24:46:04
Being able to have.

24:46:04 – 24:49:17
Have my own spiritual grounding Yes.

24:52:03 – 24:52:21
how I relate

24:52:21 – 24:56:16
to it, Linda, is that I’m not a source of any of this stuff.

24:56:17 – 24:57:18
I’m just a conduit.

24:57:18 – 25:02:12
But but my job conduit I actually have work to do as a conduit.

25:02:12 – 25:07:17
I’ve got to keep the eagle plaque free out of the pipe, because when that pipe

25:07:17 – 25:11:08
starts getting my ego in it, it gets things started getting distorted.

25:11:17 – 25:13:00
And it’s a full time work.

25:13:00 – 25:16:04
Given my ego plaque Welcome to humanity.

25:19:17 – 25:20:11
True.

25:20:11 – 25:21:10
True.

25:21:10 – 25:25:05
So more for consultants, additional tips for consultants.

25:25:05 – 25:30:23
You talk about both sides of both that the methodology as well as way of being.

25:31:04 – 25:34:03
What else for change consultants would you advise

25:34:03 – 25:37:03
at my experiences is that many,

25:38:04 – 25:42:07
arguably most in our profession have been

25:44:06 – 25:47:10
have been taught that whatever you think is going

25:47:10 – 25:50:23
on, whatever recommendation you want to after offer,

25:51:11 – 25:55:19
you’ve got to frame it into what will be comfortable for them.

25:56:11 – 26:01
All the language oftentimes used.

26:01 – 26:02:12
Linda, that I hear is is, yeah, you have to

26:02:12 – 26:04:14
you have to go to where they are.

26:04:14 – 26:08:19
And and my response to that is, of course, we go

26:08:19 – 26:12:16
to where we where they are, but we can’t stay where they are.

26:12:17 – 26:18:21
We have to challenge we have to to push the envelope or are all we’re

26:19:02 – 26:25:10
all we’re doing is is is serving as a commodity to to.

26:25:19 – 26:27:06
And by that I mean

26:28:06 – 26:30:20
if if you’re my client and

26:30:20 – 26:34:21
I’m trying to make sure that you’re you’re not disturbed in any way,

26:34:21 – 26:37:21
and I’ll bring you just a little bit of what really needs to happen,

26:38:15 – 26:42:11
I’m putting my I’m putting my own comfort and security ahead

26:42:11 – 26:47:17
of the promise I made to you, assuming I made you a promised big change.

26:47:23 – 26:52:05
Yes, I will bring you some guidance about how you can manage that

26:52:16 – 26:55:03
if I actually water that down

26:55:03 – 26:59:06
so that I can ensure that you’re not going to be upset with me.

26:59:06 – 27:04:02
Or just then I don’t think I’m living up to our professional responsibility.

27:04:02 – 27:07:02
And so I would encourage

27:07:17 – 27:09:13
us as professionals

27:09:13 – 27:12:13
to take ourselves seriously

27:13:00 – 27:17:07
and you don’t find a heart surgeon, Linda, at the first aid station.

27:17:09 – 27:20:09
That’s just not the best use of their skills.

27:20:14 – 27:23:13
if change management actually isn’t smoke and mirrors,

27:23:13 – 27:27:08
if it really does have value, and if a practitioner

27:27:18 – 27:32:21
is really good at practicing this craft, I think then it’s not just an opportunity.

27:32:21 – 27:35:21
I think there’s a responsibility to

27:36:04 – 27:40:19
to show up fully, to bring to bring it all forward so that

27:41:21 – 27:43:23
I don’t know if the client is

27:43:23 – 27:47:02
going to accept what I’m suggesting.

27:48:06 – 27:51:13
What I do know is that if they decide

27:51:13 – 27:55:15
to do something different than what I’m suggesting, so I’ve suggested X,

27:56:03 – 27:59:13
they’ve decided they’ll do 50% of X, No problem with that.

27:59:21 – 28:03:05
I just want them to understand the vulnerability of the other 50%.

28:03:05 – 28:05:13
That’s all that because that means

28:05:13 – 28:10:05
they’re making an informed decision to do 50% of X practitioners.

28:10:11 – 28:14:10
If we only bring 50%, they actually think that that’s what they should be doing

28:15:04 – 28:20:07
So, Daryl, about, again, challenges and advice, guidance for change

28:20:07 – 28:25:01
consultants to step up and be fully present, to be courageous

28:25:22 – 28:28:22
in what they are advising about.

28:28:22 – 28:33:00
courage is it manifested by

28:33:11 – 28:37:04
I’ll run into the burning building as soon as it’s safe to save the children?

28:37:12 – 28:40:23
No, but by its nature,

28:41:03 – 28:44:19
it is risky to step forward with what

28:45:05 – 28:48:20
the practitioner actually is saying and what they think needs to go on. So.

28:49:06 – 28:53:00
So this isn’t about how do I do that and protect myself.

28:53:07 – 28:56:21
It’s how do I put the what is best

28:56:21 – 29:15
for the client in front of what’s best for me.

29:02:11 – 29:05:10
And and that’s just

29:05:10 – 29:08:10
that’s what other that we I think we that’s why we’re saying

29:08:10 – 29:12:04
let’s let’s draw from how physicians

29:12:04 – 29:15:04
hopefully have how they operate They

29:15:15 – 29:19:18
they first of all they they don’t go to the first aid station.

29:19:18 – 29:24:19
They if they’re a heart surgeon, they go to where they can have the greatest value.

29:25:19 – 29:27:20
They’re frank with their patients

29:27:20 – 29:31:02
about what’s really going on, even when it’s upsetting to them.

29:31:15 – 29:35:10
And and they are very prescriptive of

29:35:13 – 29:40:22
if if you want to survive this cancer, these are the three things you have to do.

29:41:03 – 29:43:16
If you decide to do two of them, that’s fine.

29:43:16 – 29:46:16
You’re just here’s here’s what that does to your odds.

29:47:03 – 29:50:17
That is a professional that is taking him or herself

29:50:17 – 29:54:07
seriously and saying it’s up to you.

29:54:19 – 29:57:22
Patient our client to decide what to do with that.

29:58:03 – 30:01:03
I’m not going to I’m not going to water down my guidance to you

30:01:03 – 30:04:11
because I think you’ll only do two when in fact there’s three.

30:04:14 – 30:06:05
Yes, it’s risky, but

30:08:03 – 30:10:18
let me let me use this, Linda, as a

30:10:18 – 30:16:07
as a as a doorway to a research project that I did a number of years ago.

30:16:20 – 30:19:02
So I went to

30:19:02 – 30:22:22
I went to leaders who were spending money on change management.

30:23:11 – 30:26:14
They either were buying outside consultants or they were hiring inside

30:26:18 – 30:28:10
a practitioners.

30:28:10 – 30:29:09
So they were spending money.

30:29:09 – 30:32:18
And I said, What value are you getting from the money you’re spending?

30:34:06 – 30:35:19
I was unprepared.

30:35:19 – 30:39:10
25% of the leaders I talked to said they got no value at all

30:39:10 – 30:41:15
from Jewish management. They didn’t want no more.

30:41:15 – 30:43:02
They weren’t going to spending more money.

30:43:02 – 30:46:06
I was I was blown away at 25% to me as

30:48:11 – 30:52:15
65% said, Oh yeah, that change management stuff.

30:52:16 – 30:54:17
I like it. I’m glad they’re here.

30:54:17 – 30:57:17
I get plenty, I get good value, no problem.

30:57:17 – 31:23
I don’t think of them as strategic resources,

31:01:05 – 31:04:03
but I’m glad they’re here for that tactical communication stuff.

31:04:03 – 31:07:05
Only 10% of the time that I hear leaders say,

31:07:23 – 31:12:00
Oh, I would never go into a major critical change

31:12:00 – 31:15:23
without some kind of partnership with somebody really good at change management.

31:17:01 – 31:20:05
So what that’s telling me is that

31:21:13 – 31:26:06
most of the most of the requests that come to our profession

31:27:04 – 31:31:17
let me use the numbers I just gave, saying let’s say 65% of the requests

31:31:17 – 31:35:15
that come in are asking for just basic fundamental change management.

31:35:15 – 31:39:19
You know, it’s not going to require a lot of courage or just some basics.

31:40:11 – 31:42:23
But 10% of the time, leaders

31:42:23 – 31:45:23
are dealing with much more complexity than that.

31:46:04 – 31:47:13
They’re seeking wisdom.

31:47:13 – 31:50:09
They’re seeking insight, not just tools and techniques.

31:50:09 – 31:53:00
And and so

31:53:00 – 31:57:09
I hope that as a profession, we can move up and down that continuum

31:57:21 – 32:01:06
and as that individual practitioners, we can decide,

32:01:20 – 32:04:07
well, how do what kind of portfolio do I want?

32:04:07 – 32:07:14
Do I want to do all my work in the solid performer stage,

32:07:14 – 32:10:15
or do I want to move into that 10% high impact stage?

32:11:01 – 32:11:13
I’m not

32:12:18 – 32:15:11
Linda, I’m not suggesting there’s anything pejorative here.

32:15:11 – 32:20:11
It’s not good or bad, important that we know what kind of portfolio do

32:20:11 – 32:23:01
we aspire to, what kind of we got, do we do

32:23:01 – 32:26:03
we need to be more prepared for that higher impact work?

32:26:19 – 32:28:11
Yeah. Daryl, you’re.

32:28:11 – 32:31:11
You’re triggering for me.

32:32:11 – 32:34:04
Three terms that we use.

32:34:04 – 32:35:12
One is change management.

32:35:12 – 32:39:19
You’ve used that a lot, which I orient more to the tools and techniques.

32:40:04 – 32:45:01
Then for us, change leadership, which is in really investing

32:45:01 – 32:49:01
in the leadership of transformation and what leaders, how leaders need to be

32:49:01 – 32:52:02
and what they need to do, and then ultimately conscious change

32:52:02 – 32:55:02
leadership, which is the strategic advisory

32:55:03 – 33:07
and self awareness, to be able to know how to influence

33:07 – 33:03:17
the awareness and the consciousness of the leaders we’re serving.

33:04:04 – 33:06:12
So comment on that.

33:06:12 – 33:11:23
So there’s three it is a continuum or nested frame, so to speak, going up.

33:12:06 – 33:17:00
But as you to the field is change management, what comes up for you

33:17:00 – 33:21:23
and how about what you’re describing is where the field needs to go.

33:21:23 – 33:23:02
How would you

33:24:01 – 33:29:04
that direction you?

33:39:15 – 34:13:18
Yes, I’m.

34:28:15 – 34:32:14
so what I’m aware of is when they do say,

34:32:14 – 34:36:01
we’ve got a transformation, here’s my criteria.

34:36:19 – 34:39:18
It’s their endeavor is transformational.

34:39:18 – 34:42:15
They’re going to hold themselves inside realization

34:42:15 – 34:45:15
metrics of outcomes, not installation.

34:45:23 – 34:50:17
And they consider success with this program as an absolute

34:51:18 – 34:54:14
organizational and personal imperative.

34:54:14 – 34:57:09
If those three things are true,

34:57:09 – 35:02:01
then they’re there in there in the space that I want to serve.

35:02:19 – 35:05:16
And in that space

35:05:16 – 35:08:02
I say something very early.

35:08:02 – 35:10:15
Usually the first time we’ve met

35:10:15 – 35:13:12
that they kind of nod their head about but becomes real over time.

35:13:12 – 35:16:12
And that is something I mentioned just earlier.

35:16:21 – 35:20:14
You’re not going to transform this institution, CEO,

35:20:23 – 35:25:02
unless you’re willing to examine your own personal transformation.

35:25:12 – 35:26:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:28:04 – 35:30:01
Getting into

35:30:01 – 35:33:01
what does that mean occurs

35:33:10 – 35:36:23
in the in the reality of the moment.

35:36:23 – 35:39:03
They realize that

35:39:03 – 35:44:03
the level of courage they’re going to have to find themselves to go tell the board

35:44:19 – 35:47:21
what’s really going on or the,

35:48:06 – 35:51:10
or the discomfort they’re going to personally feel

35:52:05 – 35:54:21
to go have this conversation with the key executives

35:54:21 – 35:57:21
they’ve been dodging for 18 months at that.

35:58:21 – 36:02:09
What’s happening is they instead of just exploring

36:02:09 – 36:06:21
the organizational dynamics, they’re now having to be introspective about

36:08:03 – 36:11:06
what do they have to bring to the table in order to do that.

36:11:18 – 36:15:14
you and Dean and I ultimately end up in the same spot.

36:16:13 – 36:19:13
I just

36:19:13 – 36:21:04
Yeah. Beautiful.

36:21:04 – 36:25:06
Well, Daryl, thank you for sharing so much of your thinking

36:25:06 – 36:26:22
and your work at this point.

36:26:22 – 36:29:22
I want to ask you, what’s next for you?

36:30:02 – 36:34:08
You know, we had a prior conversation and we both asked each other

36:34:13 – 36:37:12
as being, well, in our seventies, are you going to retire

36:37:12 – 36:39:09
or are you to retire?

36:39:09 – 36:43:06
And you said, no, I’m out in full time and as are we.

36:43:12 – 36:46:12
So what do you see is next for you?

36:46:23 – 36:49:07
so that the platforms that

36:49:07 – 36:53:06
I aspire to have to practice my craft.

36:53:06 – 36:55:09
I’m blessed with having the platforms

36:56:16 – 36:57:10
blessed with

36:57:10 – 37:01:03
incredible clients that are very serious

37:01:03 – 37:04:18
about their changes and really blessed with colleagues to get to work with.

37:04:18 – 37:07:18
So so from that standpoint,

37:09:15 – 37:12:15
I’m not seeking something else in that realm.

37:13:06 – 37:16:15
My next step, Linda, is what I mentioned earlier.

37:17:18 – 37:20:18
My biggest fear is,

37:21:00 – 37:23:23
is the next really big,

37:23:23 – 37:28:16
sophisticated, complex, global whatever that has brought to me

37:29:08 – 37:32:20
is going to be beyond my reach I’m not going to be prepared

37:34:10 – 37:35:20
either.

37:35:20 – 37:40:03
Technically prepared I’m not going to be enough of a conduit for

37:40:05 – 37:43:04
for the answers to flow through me and get caught up in thinking

37:43:04 – 37:44:03
they’re coming from me.

37:44:03 – 37:48:20
Whatever it is, that’s my that’s what’s next for me is do

37:49:05 – 37:52:19
is to constantly look for how do I close the gaps

37:53:09 – 37:57:11
that unfortunately I see every day what’s next is less

38:15 – 38:07:09
Yes, yes.

38:07:16 – 38:09:07
You know what’s so beautiful about that?

38:09:07 – 38:12:16
Given your entire history and the experience that you have

38:13:00 – 38:16:13
and sharing with other with leaders and consultants about

38:16:20 – 38:19:20
I use the word humbleness, humility,

38:20:16 – 38:25:14
no matter how much experience we have, we are always faced

38:25:14 – 38:30:06
with hanging out in a question that we don’t have a definitive answer to.

38:30:13 – 38:35:13
And so the skills of hanging out in the question never leave us.

38:35:23 – 38:38:14
After 50 years, they never leave us.

38:38:14 – 38:43:23
And here you’re exemplifying that so beautifully in such a humane way.

38:43:23 – 38:47:04
I think it sheds a very important light

38:47:04 – 38:50:04
and texture to the field

38:50:05 – 38:52:20
Well, you and I

38:52:20 – 38:55:05
have hung out long enough that, you know,

38:55:05 – 38:58:02
I’ve got pretty high control

38:58:02 – 39:27:18
and Yes.

39:40:05 – 39:42:05
Right, right, right.

39:42:05 – 39:43:11
Absolutely.

39:43:11 – 39:47:21
Well, Daryl, you’re a model of what it takes to be a master,

39:48:13 – 39:52:07
because there’s a dot, dot, dot at the end of that. Why,

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you’re a master at that.

39:55:06 – 39:58:14
I want to thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself

39:58:14 – 40:03:05
and being so open and vulnerable as well as really concrete

40:03:05 – 40:06:05
in your advice to leaders and change consultants.

40:06:05 – 40:09:05
Any last thoughts before we close

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Yeah, I, I want to take this shot at

40:14:17 – 40:18:12
it just expressing my appreciation for what you personally

40:18:12 – 40:23:02
and you and Dean collectively have done, the contribution

40:23:05 – 40:29:02
that you two have made to this profession, the seriousness with which year

40:29:02 – 40:32:23
after year you’ve approached the work and and

40:33:08 – 40:37:07
and not only dealt with those tangible fundamentals, but the

40:38:04 – 40:43:02
but the intangible mastery level up pursuits as well,

40:43:02 – 40:46:15
and providing environments for people to be able to explore that.

40:47:02 – 40:51:04
And just I’m just really grateful that that the profession

40:51:04 – 40:55:17
has been able to be on the receiving end of of what you have done.

40:55:17 – 40:57:00
And, and

40:58:01 – 40:58:08
you know, a

40:58:08 – 41:01:10
podcast like this is it’s not a surprise.

41:01:10 – 41:04:10
It’s like an extension of, of what you’ve always done.

41:05:19 – 41:08:19
And I’m just very appreciative of,

41:09:03 – 41:12:03
of the investment that you guys have made.

41:13:10 – 41:17:02
I know I know you invest in your clients and the practitioners you work with,

41:17:06 – 41:21:05
but the investments that you’ve made in the profession is, you know,

41:21:07 – 41:26:04
I’m just I’m just really pleased for the profession that it gets to be

41:26:04 – 41:29:14
on the on the absorbing end of what you guys have had to offer.

41:30:08 – 41:32:23
Beautiful. Well, I’m humbled and honored.

41:32:23 – 41:34:23
Thank you for those kind words.

41:34:23 – 41:36:00
That’s great.

41:36:00 – 41:39:10
And it adds fuel to our passion

41:39:10 – 41:42:14
as well as you know, what I see in yours.

41:42:23 – 41:45:06
So thanks for the time today.

41:45:06 – 41:49:01
I really appreciate having known you all these years

41:49:06 – 41:52:02
and continuing to know you and learn about you

41:52:02 – 41:55:14
and appreciate the work and contribution you’ve made to the world.

41:55:20 – 41:56:16
Thank you, Daryl.

41:59:08 – 42:00
Yeah.

42:00 – 42:02:02
Yeah. Beautiful.

42:02:02 – 42:05:16
Today’s subject is one of the key topics that we feature

42:05:16 – 42:09:07
in our leading transformational change online program.

42:09:13 – 42:13:01
If you’d like to learn more about leading transformation social change,

42:13:07 – 42:17:15
go to beingfirst.com/LTC

42:20:11 – 42:23:03
Thanks for spending some time with me today.

42:23:03 – 42:26:03
I hope you gain some valuable insights for your work.

42:26:09 – 42:30:21
Please send me your questions and challenges by going to askdrchange.com