Welcome to Ask Dr. Change. I’m Dr. Linda Ackerman Anderson. I’m happy to have you join me today to explore how to seriously up level your leadership and consulting to transformational changes all through conscious change leadership.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Change, for having me on the podcast. I appreciate that.
And that, that is a big question. Who am I? I was thinking, you know, one of the things that probably is at the core of me which which figures into my work as well, is optimism. So I’m an optimist.
I got that from my father. He actually was a member of a a card carrying member of a club called the Optimist Club when I was growing up. They did good works in the community. And so one of the things is that that I am a glass half full guy.

And I think that that really helps me in working with organizations and with leaders. But. Possibilities, potential vision the what might be and asking that question with with the expectation that better is coming. Right.

So the expectation is better is coming and I think that the my clients really benefit from that because it’s a it’s affirming. I have a. Yeah yeah. I had a mentor Kathy Danny Miller who you knew as well I think Linda and God rest her soul and she she taught me a lot about this field when I first got into it.
And a lot of it was based in work that Ron Leppert had done around preferred future. And that also is looking at what do I want in the future and then how do I get there? I think creativity is another piece of who I am, that I love innovation and I love discovering new things, learning new things, applying new things in terms of my work in the world. And I also love to cook.

Linda I love this. The other night for my whole family made chicken parmesan and eggplant parmesan from scratch. That was that was a good meal is some brisket as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And when you and Dean were doing the large group work and a lot of the things that you’re doing now in Houston with the police that you told me about, that’s the way I’ve worked with police in Charleston and Louisville. And so we, we share some common bonds there. And of course, going back to and, you know, I don’t mind dating myself at this point, but I think the late eighties is when I made the late eighties, plugged in to all of the large scale change work that Kathy and her colleagues were doing. Yeah.

I’ve got a fun story about this Linda, that had a great academic mentor when I was at the University of Michigan, and I basically was doing independent study work in the psychology department. In fact, at one point asked them for funding that I would be able to get to go observe behavior in bars. I was doing a thesis on bars in a college town, and I went to the psychology department and they said, If I just sit there and I and I look at people because they said how much foam is supposed to be on a beer was a level of organization commitment supposed to have two inches. And I said, if I go into these bars and I just sit there and watch people pouring beers, it’s going to be odd.
They’re going to wonder what I’m doing. And so I went in, I said, you know, can I have money to buy beer so that I could drink it while I’m watching and counting how well people behave? And they asked me out of my ear. But one of the what my first consulting job was actually at a bar that I was attending at in college called Dooley’s.

And I, I was going to do interviews and a couple of meetings, you know, something small. And what I found was the owner of the bar said to me, my first contract, Linda, do whatever you want, Jacobs. Just don’t f anything up. And he didn’t use the letter F.

So I had a very when I was 21, my consulting career started actually, all I’ve ever done, and I had an internship with Kathy and her crew, and they were working on a global change effort at Ford at the time where I participated management and I stepped right into that at 22 when I graduated. And so consulting has been all that I’ve done. Yeah. So I had a master’s thesis.

I went to Pepperdine and got my master’s in O.D. and my thesis that I wrote up was I call the Cathedral Building. After that story of coming up on a gentleman, you know, with the stone, What are you doing? And I’m cutting a stone and I’m building a wall. And the third person says, I’m building a cathedral.

And so I documented the process that we were using it for as part of what my thesis was. We were working at Corning and Marriott, and each of these got a different section. And so I documented that. And then as we extended that over time, from lifestyle change to real time strategic change, I identified some core underlying principles that you could live by, and it got us out of what I call the event only game.

So if if all you can do is these large groups, you go large group session to a large group session. And Kathy used to say there was a half life about six months that an organizational edge and insight and collaboration, all these things could stick and then you’d need to bring people back together. So my question was, what if you didn’t? And I actually had a client at Unocal that they had an unwritten rule that you couldn’t gather more than 40 people at a time for a meeting.

And so the sort of felt like I had one arm tied behind my back. So it was unusual. So the principles really help open the door to if you’re going to be thinking and acting is just the future. Now, if you’re going to be engaging, including people, if you’re going to be doing preferred future work, these core principles say you’re doing good, real time strategic change work.

If you’re living those principles and even in a one on one conversation, I could be doing large scale change where I don’t need 500 people in a room. But that one on one conversation with those principles in life makes it possible to do ipsc work. Yeah. So now and you mentioned in the intro that I’ve joined Leadership Circle, which is an organization that’s focused on leaders and their development and building consciousness and the work that they do in their organizations.

And there’s an instrument assessment that goes along with it. But the Organization of Leadership Circle is focused on individuals and teams, primarily secondarily and systems. The work that I’ve done in my career around PSC is primarily focused on systems and secondarily focused on individuals and teams, right? So neither ignores the other, but when you put them together, you get a very powerful combination.

And so for me, success is bridging the gap between these two methodologies, between these two approaches and bringing what I call our A-game at that individual team level and our A-game at the systems level. Yeah, you know, I had a very interesting conversation that I’ve been part of just the last few days in our organization around artificial intelligence. And one of the things that I’ve done with Chat GTP is created something called Chat RISC, and I’ve got a knowledge of everything that I’ve written and published and designs and all of these things are in a knowledge file and you can go in and you can ask questions.

Yeah, I’m a leader and I need to explain to my team what real time strategic changes how do I do that? And then I gives you a stunningly good response. So there’s this conversation in our organization right now about, well, what is it that I can’t do? It can’t have deep insight or collective sense making or intuition right?

And all of these things that they say that I cannot do. And it was interesting to me because I’m on a internal group called Working on the Future of Work. And instead of asking, What can I do? I’m asking what can I do?

And in fact, I went into the A.I. interface and typed in what research is there that supports A.I. improving the work of leadership in the world? And of course, it gave me a whole page of research from consulting firms and and professors and so forth about the role that I play. So one of the things that I think is really important is continuing to embrace these new technologies, to take it again from this perspective of what can we learn from them, what can they add value in, how can they shape our thinking? And just with what I got back in that question, I thought it was really interesting because it spurs a deeper dialog, a more informed dialog, because it pulls this information so many places that you just wouldn’t have.

And instead of just an opinion, which those are good right? But an informed a more informed opinion I think is even better. one of the things that I will say, Linda, and this is paradoxical because we’re just talking about artificial intelligence and the cutting edge, and I’m going to go back to an article that, you know, while I’m sure Dean does that Herb Sheppard wrote, right. Rules of Thumb for Change Agents.

And there’s a what are the rules of thumb that he offers that I believe in quite deeply. It’s called light, meaning fires and so lighting many fires in a in an hour to Sea World, there’s short learning loops. So rather than these massive projects that take years to pay off and you don’t know whether they’re going to work or not, it’s about how fast can we make something happen? How can we think and act as if the future were now and then start changing our behavior immediately?
And so when I think of advice to leaders, this, like many fires, says, look, get out there and start trying things, this reticence or fear or just holding back from getting out into the world and experimenting and finding new and better ways to do things, sharing those with your colleagues, making that part of the everyday conversation. Right. What are you trying what are your experiments that you have underway right now? All of that, I think, is a good counsel for leaders or for any change agent that we’re talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing, Linda, that I would say just one other kind of counsel, because I had a client that was hammering on accountability in their organization, right? Like any which way they could get accountability built in, they even signs were going up in elevators and like, you know, wherever you heard, this was it. And they were getting less and less accountability in the organization.

The harder they push straight, the less they got. And there’s a polarity based on work that I learned from my buddy Barry Johnson, accountability and support. And so what you really need is this support to be able to help people fulfill their accountabilities. So one other guidance that I’ll give you, because what support looks like needs to, I think, be defined by the people getting the support.
So as a leader, I don’t know what support you need. Linda, I need to ask you. And so having that conversation between leaders in their organizations, there was when I was growing up, there was a band maybe maybe you caught part of it. REO Speedwagon was the band and they had the you know, that was no, no, they had a song 157 Riverside Avenue, and it was a guitar riff that the guy did.
But what they said was, you know, do you know how to speak to a guitar right? And they said, You got to speak to them in their own language. And so he goes down a riff back and forth. And when you’re a leader, you’ve got to learn to speak in the language of the people that you’re leading.

It’s not it’s not fair or it’s not going to be effective to say, look, you come in, understand what I’m saying? From my language as a leader, I’ve got to come and meet you where you are and learn from you, and then take that and provide support from that place as opposed to expecting people in the organization to make sense of your worldview. Yeah. And the work that you and Dean have done for years, it’s founded in the same deep wisdom around relationship and connection and and humanity and, you know, I mean, I think we all yearn for that connection.

And if we can find it where we work, amazing things become possible, One thing I would say that I found really helpful through the years in in any situation in which I’m consulting is meeting my clients where they are, right? So in the Leadership Circle organization, we have this leadership Circle profile and the first thing that we do is it’s a 360. And so we gather data from people, bosses, subordinates, peers and be able to then understand where is this leader in their journey, right in their story around moving into being the best that they can be. And so being able to tap into that information and join that person, join that person on their journey.

Kathy used to say that there was something she called Consultative Leadership and Consultative Leadership gave her gave me gives you gives the listeners permission to step out and be part of a team, be part of that partnership so that you can decide where are we going to go, how are we going to get there? What do you need from me? What do I need from you? And so that whole notion of working with your clients, partnering with them, starting where they are listening to their needs and their expectations, and building that kind of relationship that we talked about between leaders in the organization.

And it’s the same thing between leaders and consultants. Then the deeper that relationship, the more profound that connection that we have with people, the bigger the possibility of what we can create together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the great gifts that I got, Linda, is when I started in this field, I said I was 22 years old and I was going in to meetings at Ford with executives, you know, division general managers of 30,000 member organizations.

And I went in and they used to like, wind me up and push me into these meetings. And I would sit down and I, I would just ask the question that came to me. I mean, I was curious. I was like wondering and I didn’t know much.

And so I asked these questions and of course, some of them were taboo questions. You’re not supposed to be asking some of them or, you know, just simple, basic. Could you say more? So I think those four words, you know, another thing that I would say is a great guide for me in my work is could you say more for words and and then and then shut up right.

And start taking mental notes about it. But people yearned to be heard. They yearned to be listened to. There’s a lot of inherent wisdom in an organization just by what people know on a daily basis.
And so if you’re if you’re listening for more previous space opening a door, it is a wealth of information that becomes available to you. Yeah, well, I mean, with what you’re saying, you know, when people answer that first question, asking a second and a third takes you deeper and deeper into relationship information, into insight. And there are things you ask me. You’re asking me a question and I’m responding and we’re having a conversation and a dialog, and you’re going deeper with your own perspective on that.

And I’m reflecting back my and this is where the magic happens is taking the time to be able to have those meaningful conversations. And I find that when I’m with leadership teams, when I’m working with science systems, we spend time in what we call design teams, which is something that you use as well. And so in those design teams building a common database, building a common understanding that includes I mean, you talk about our political climate, right? It’s like, well, we’re not including the whole picture.

We’re taking our side and their side, and then we’re making sure that they don’t cross. Well, in those design teams, you’ve got to listen to be able to understand. You know, Kathy used to say, you know, see the world through the eyes of another. Yeah.

So, I mean, I can answer that very personally because the work that I’m doing in leadership Circle for our TSC and LCP or the Leadership Circle profile together, if it’s a challenge, right? It’s a challenge because you have I don’t want to I’ll say it right. So there’s sort of silos. I mean, you’ve got to systems work and you’ve got individual and teamwork.

And so how do you bring those together? It’s not that one’s not doing the other, right. I mean, everybody’s working on all aspects of the system, but primarily, where are you paying attention? Where is your energy?

Where is your effort going? And so being able to say, look, how do we pull this together in a unique way that we can bring it to our clients and give them the opportunity to cut new ground, to find new ways forward for themselves and for their organizations That really leverages the best that we’ve got to offer that that individual team level and at that system level. And it’s it it’s a challenge. I mean, it’s I took it on.

I thought this is going to improve my work, the value that I offer to clients by having that emphasis on leadership and leadership, conscious leadership and development of that, furthering it. All of that is part of what I’m very deep into these days, personally making sense of and figuring out how to bring it into the world in a way that’s replicable, that’s predictable. One of the things about the Leadership Circle profile is it’s hugely well-researched and the correlations that they have to effective organization performance on a number of different dimensions against this instrument are really, really high.

So being able to have that level of predictability, when you go in with an assessment like having that level of predictability, when we go into do change work, yeah, I, I have always been driven by impact and I happen to have been raised in the Jewish faith. And there was a I was seven years old in Sunday school and the rabbi was up on the altar in the synagogue and she said something that I remember to this day. So, you know, 50 plus years later. And he said, When you die and you go to meet God, God will not ask you why you are not as great as Abraham, and God will not ask you why you are not as great as Moses.

The God will have one question for you and is this Were you as great as you could be? Did did you make your contribution? Did you step up and figure out ways through when it was tough, when it was challenging, when you didn’t know which way to go? So yes, in were both.

Specifically, I have this challenge as a change in transformation practice leader in leadership circle to figure out how do I integrate these and not like a bolt on that, just like add to but how do we fully integrate this in a way that’s most powerful for clients and organizations? And then this question of what’s up for me in life? Well, let’s see. On top of the chicken parmesan and eggplant parmesan, that’s the I mean, it’s a funny metaphor because there’s many more recipes to be cooked, many more dishes to be served.

And I think that really seeing what is possible, like I said, around a I or other things when there’s something new, how can we move towards it right instead of away from it? Instead of that fear or that reticence, what’s the next thing around the corner? Well, I think that, yeah, technology is going to play a big role and a lot of people talk about A.I. and the implications of it and you know it taking on human characteristics, it’s consciousness and so forth. And I think we’ve got to we’ve got to tackle those kind of things head on.

We’ve got to move towards them and into them and start experimenting. So light many fires, you know, the things that we’ve talked about today, that fits for me as well. And so finding interesting and different things to be doing is what’s going to lead to the next breakthrough, the next methodology, the next book, the next training. All of that is, I think, available.

And so I’m like I said, you know, like, I’m curious, I’m like to learn and like to discover what I don’t know. I mean, I love somebody pointing out to me. I’ll tell you one quick story, Linda. We were working at Mobile and I, we had our change effort, right?

We had it mapped out. We were following it and I said things that was interesting. As I said, there were all these spinoff initiatives happening, you know, which is good. You know, it’s like organically the work was being done and changes were being made and it was off the roadmap of our, you know, actual change effort and fellow named Charles Bennett from Louisiana said to me, he said, and this is, you know, a bad interpretation of his accent, but I’ll give it a try.

If you, Jake, what you call spinoff initiatives we call were absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Well, this is a great opportunity.

You’ve got great questions. And I think that the podcast is just a tremendous addition, right? I mean, it’s just another medium. And you moved into it and move forward with it.
And whatever the technical challenges may be, medium full steam ahead. I think that the thought that I would leave, you know, Cathy’s to say, please leave something ringing in people’s ears. And I think that what I would leave ringing in your ears is you can do it that having that affirmation, having that confidence. And you know what?

If it doesn’t work exactly the way that you wanted or thought, that’s okay. What did I learn? How am I moving in the right direction? Right.

That sailboat, that hair thing back and forth, Am I moving in the general direction? Because it’s unlikely you’re going to get there in a straight line. It’s just the probabilities are not on your side. So the question becomes, what am I doing to learn and progress?

And if I’m learning and progressing in anything that I’m doing in my life, Godspeed, I’m going to be in better shape. And my organizations, my clients, all are going to benefit from that. So I think really keeping that optimistic perspective that I talked about early on is something that’s critical in this world of change. Today’s subject is one of the key topics that we feature in our leading transformational change online program.

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